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	<title>Comments on: The Age of Heroes?</title>
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	<link>http://www.jackofravens.com/2006/08/13/the-age-of-heroes/</link>
	<description>A Blog by Mark Chadbourn about folklore, mythology, legend and his new fantasy novel, Jack of Ravens</description>
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		<title>By: Torque Control &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Out of the Silent Blog &#8230;</title>
		<link>http://www.jackofravens.com/2006/08/13/the-age-of-heroes/comment-page-1/#comment-129</link>
		<dc:creator>Torque Control &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Out of the Silent Blog &#8230;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Aug 2006 07:15:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jackofravens.com/2006/08/13/the-age-of-heroes/#comment-129</guid>
		<description>[...] Compare and contrast: Mark Chadbourn on golden ages of commercial genre publishing and Nicholas Whyte on Hugo-winning fantasies [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Compare and contrast: Mark Chadbourn on golden ages of commercial genre publishing and Nicholas Whyte on Hugo-winning fantasies [...]</p>
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		<title>By: MarkC</title>
		<link>http://www.jackofravens.com/2006/08/13/the-age-of-heroes/comment-page-1/#comment-128</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Aug 2006 08:50:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jackofravens.com/2006/08/13/the-age-of-heroes/#comment-128</guid>
		<description>John, I appreciate the points you are making from an agent&#039;s/editor&#039;s perspective, but I wasn&#039;t really talking about publisher or industry expectations - more about how the genres are seen from the reader side and the wider societal jigsaw.  All those authors you mention are excellent.  But I am concerned that if publishers in the modern world focus on marketing for a niche readership, SF will eventually go the way of the western or war genres - which appears to be happening with horror.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, I appreciate the points you are making from an agent&#8217;s/editor&#8217;s perspective, but I wasn&#8217;t really talking about publisher or industry expectations &#8211; more about how the genres are seen from the reader side and the wider societal jigsaw.  All those authors you mention are excellent.  But I am concerned that if publishers in the modern world focus on marketing for a niche readership, SF will eventually go the way of the western or war genres &#8211; which appears to be happening with horror.</p>
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		<title>By: Ariel</title>
		<link>http://www.jackofravens.com/2006/08/13/the-age-of-heroes/comment-page-1/#comment-127</link>
		<dc:creator>Ariel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Aug 2006 07:08:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jackofravens.com/2006/08/13/the-age-of-heroes/#comment-127</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s also important to look at the reasons for the horror slump of the mid to late &#039;90s, and one of the most important - I&#039;ve always maintained - was the rise of the computer game. 

Reading horror fiction has surely always been, at least in part, about experiencing that frisson of fear. And in the mid &#039;90s, as computer games and hand-held consoles became both more widespread and more sophisticated, mass-market consumers could get that frisson - that adrenalin hit - from a much more immediate, multi-coloured stereo-surround sound source than books. 

Games like the House of the Dead series, which literally threw zombies at you and let you blast them into greasy lumps with large-calibre weapons, provided an instant and repetitive hit without the (for many, or even most) tedious chore of having to wade through a few hundred pages of prose for the payoffs. 

There are lots of other factors that contributed to the decline of mainstream horror at the time - not least of which was publisher&#039;s appalling record for supporting horror authors with effective marketing spend - but House of the Dead was a definite book-killer, I reckon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s also important to look at the reasons for the horror slump of the mid to late &#8217;90s, and one of the most important &#8211; I&#8217;ve always maintained &#8211; was the rise of the computer game. </p>
<p>Reading horror fiction has surely always been, at least in part, about experiencing that frisson of fear. And in the mid &#8217;90s, as computer games and hand-held consoles became both more widespread and more sophisticated, mass-market consumers could get that frisson &#8211; that adrenalin hit &#8211; from a much more immediate, multi-coloured stereo-surround sound source than books. </p>
<p>Games like the House of the Dead series, which literally threw zombies at you and let you blast them into greasy lumps with large-calibre weapons, provided an instant and repetitive hit without the (for many, or even most) tedious chore of having to wade through a few hundred pages of prose for the payoffs. </p>
<p>There are lots of other factors that contributed to the decline of mainstream horror at the time &#8211; not least of which was publisher&#8217;s appalling record for supporting horror authors with effective marketing spend &#8211; but House of the Dead was a definite book-killer, I reckon.</p>
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		<title>By: kjempekjekt.com - SF blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; En ny gullalder for Fantasy</title>
		<link>http://www.jackofravens.com/2006/08/13/the-age-of-heroes/comment-page-1/#comment-126</link>
		<dc:creator>kjempekjekt.com - SF blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; En ny gullalder for Fantasy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:34:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jackofravens.com/2006/08/13/the-age-of-heroes/#comment-126</guid>
		<description>[...] Mark Chadbourn spÃ¥r en ny gullalder for Fantasy - og samtidig en nedgang for Science Fiction sjangeren - i blog-innlegget The Age of Heroes?. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Mark Chadbourn spÃ¥r en ny gullalder for Fantasy &#8211; og samtidig en nedgang for Science Fiction sjangeren &#8211; i blog-innlegget The Age of Heroes?. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: jjarrold</title>
		<link>http://www.jackofravens.com/2006/08/13/the-age-of-heroes/comment-page-1/#comment-125</link>
		<dc:creator>jjarrold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Aug 2006 10:46:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jackofravens.com/2006/08/13/the-age-of-heroes/#comment-125</guid>
		<description>Interesting points.  Don&#039;t expect &#039;horror&#039; being taken on now to sell like King and Herbert, as with any genre it&#039;ll change over any given period of time.  Publishers aren&#039;t looking for people who sell on that level, and are perfectly happy with its present incarnation in the post-Buffy market, since they couldn&#039;t give horror titles away to the book trade for years.  Should they see a new writer who can cross the thriller/horror divide, they&#039;ll be dead chuffed, of course.  But any publisher who specifically looks for a King/Herbert type writer with those sales, which come from a different period, will be disappointed.  In the same way, both SF and fantasy have changed.  In the last ten years, SF has become stronger, with Hamilton, Morgan, Reynolds, Grimwood, MacLeod, Robson, Stross, Asher and others working perfectly well.  Again, publishers aren&#039;t looking for the majority of these to hit top 10 lists, but to sell well, and they mostly do.

Fantasy, of course, has moved on from the post-Tolkien days, with George R R Martin, China Mieville and others broadening the genre.  Again, UK publishers aren&#039;t looking for a new Brooks or Eddings, any more than they&#039;re looking for a new King or Herbert.  They are dealing with where the genre is now, not where it was ten or twenty years ago.

As a publisher for fifteen years and an agent more recently, I&#039;m aware that things can move quickly in the industry, although there is often a more organic change, and one thing for sure:  no new author being considered by a UK publisher in 2006 will be compared with long-term bestsellers, but with those writers who have become successful in the last few years.  Those are the people with whom a publisher&#039;s sales director can make comparison when they speak to W H Smiths head office...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting points.  Don&#8217;t expect &#8216;horror&#8217; being taken on now to sell like King and Herbert, as with any genre it&#8217;ll change over any given period of time.  Publishers aren&#8217;t looking for people who sell on that level, and are perfectly happy with its present incarnation in the post-Buffy market, since they couldn&#8217;t give horror titles away to the book trade for years.  Should they see a new writer who can cross the thriller/horror divide, they&#8217;ll be dead chuffed, of course.  But any publisher who specifically looks for a King/Herbert type writer with those sales, which come from a different period, will be disappointed.  In the same way, both SF and fantasy have changed.  In the last ten years, SF has become stronger, with Hamilton, Morgan, Reynolds, Grimwood, MacLeod, Robson, Stross, Asher and others working perfectly well.  Again, publishers aren&#8217;t looking for the majority of these to hit top 10 lists, but to sell well, and they mostly do.</p>
<p>Fantasy, of course, has moved on from the post-Tolkien days, with George R R Martin, China Mieville and others broadening the genre.  Again, UK publishers aren&#8217;t looking for a new Brooks or Eddings, any more than they&#8217;re looking for a new King or Herbert.  They are dealing with where the genre is now, not where it was ten or twenty years ago.</p>
<p>As a publisher for fifteen years and an agent more recently, I&#8217;m aware that things can move quickly in the industry, although there is often a more organic change, and one thing for sure:  no new author being considered by a UK publisher in 2006 will be compared with long-term bestsellers, but with those writers who have become successful in the last few years.  Those are the people with whom a publisher&#8217;s sales director can make comparison when they speak to W H Smiths head office&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Breakfast</title>
		<link>http://www.jackofravens.com/2006/08/13/the-age-of-heroes/comment-page-1/#comment-124</link>
		<dc:creator>Breakfast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Aug 2006 21:57:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jackofravens.com/2006/08/13/the-age-of-heroes/#comment-124</guid>
		<description>Science Fiction is also confounded by the rate of change- anyone trying to project more than a couple of years into the future is likely to be thrown very quickly by the next socially-transformative gadget - the mobile phone would be a good example of something that was actually quite hard to predict but is now ubiquitous. Something written now and set in the near-mid future could be totally dated in 18 months. Fantasy at least avoids that danger.

Horror isn&#039;t really my thing (except Phil Rickman, who is great) but I think it has suffered very badly from the whole &quot;target market is 15 year old boys&quot; problem that has plagued fantasy until very recently. The idea of horror for grown-ups appears to have temporarily eluded the feeble minds of marketting departments in the publishing world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Science Fiction is also confounded by the rate of change- anyone trying to project more than a couple of years into the future is likely to be thrown very quickly by the next socially-transformative gadget &#8211; the mobile phone would be a good example of something that was actually quite hard to predict but is now ubiquitous. Something written now and set in the near-mid future could be totally dated in 18 months. Fantasy at least avoids that danger.</p>
<p>Horror isn&#8217;t really my thing (except Phil Rickman, who is great) but I think it has suffered very badly from the whole &#8220;target market is 15 year old boys&#8221; problem that has plagued fantasy until very recently. The idea of horror for grown-ups appears to have temporarily eluded the feeble minds of marketting departments in the publishing world.</p>
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		<title>By: MarkC</title>
		<link>http://www.jackofravens.com/2006/08/13/the-age-of-heroes/comment-page-1/#comment-123</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Aug 2006 20:31:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jackofravens.com/2006/08/13/the-age-of-heroes/#comment-123</guid>
		<description>Ah, but I was talking about commercial horror, and while the books you mention are undoubtedly good, they haven&#039;t really troubled the upper reaches of the sales chart in the way that, say, King or Herbert did, nor have they really crossed over to the general, Eastenders-watching public in that name-recognition Stephen King way.

Most non-genre, mainstream readers need horror that is only slightly tangential to the real world, like The Shining, say, rather than a world where vampires and werewolves are the norm, imo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, but I was talking about commercial horror, and while the books you mention are undoubtedly good, they haven&#8217;t really troubled the upper reaches of the sales chart in the way that, say, King or Herbert did, nor have they really crossed over to the general, Eastenders-watching public in that name-recognition Stephen King way.</p>
<p>Most non-genre, mainstream readers need horror that is only slightly tangential to the real world, like The Shining, say, rather than a world where vampires and werewolves are the norm, imo.</p>
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		<title>By: Ariel</title>
		<link>http://www.jackofravens.com/2006/08/13/the-age-of-heroes/comment-page-1/#comment-122</link>
		<dc:creator>Ariel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Aug 2006 19:29:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jackofravens.com/2006/08/13/the-age-of-heroes/#comment-122</guid>
		<description>You know, Jo and I were talking to John Berlyne about the last point there - the horror resurgence - at lunchtime today, and we reckon that there has actually been a horror resurgence in recent years. The thing is though, it&#039;s not packaged as &#039;horror&#039; any more... these days horror books are being marketed as &#039;supernatural thrillers&#039;, complete with demonic private eyes or feisty heroine-exorcists, who don&#039;t so much run screaming from the gibbering terror in the basement as kick its butt and send it packing back to the netherhells. 

And you know why? Buffy the Vampire Slayer. That show made such an impact on the mass-consciousness of the horror-reading public that now vampires, werewolves and the like are seen as alternative lifestyle choices rather than things that go bump in the night... well, depending on your interpretation of &#039;bump&#039; obviously (Laurell K. Hamilton, anyone?)

And Orbit are riding that particular wave in a Big way...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, Jo and I were talking to John Berlyne about the last point there &#8211; the horror resurgence &#8211; at lunchtime today, and we reckon that there has actually been a horror resurgence in recent years. The thing is though, it&#8217;s not packaged as &#8216;horror&#8217; any more&#8230; these days horror books are being marketed as &#8217;supernatural thrillers&#8217;, complete with demonic private eyes or feisty heroine-exorcists, who don&#8217;t so much run screaming from the gibbering terror in the basement as kick its butt and send it packing back to the netherhells. </p>
<p>And you know why? Buffy the Vampire Slayer. That show made such an impact on the mass-consciousness of the horror-reading public that now vampires, werewolves and the like are seen as alternative lifestyle choices rather than things that go bump in the night&#8230; well, depending on your interpretation of &#8216;bump&#8217; obviously (Laurell K. Hamilton, anyone?)</p>
<p>And Orbit are riding that particular wave in a Big way&#8230;</p>
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