Comments on: Fantasy vs SF: Who Let The Dogs Out?

By: SF Signal: 'The Death of Science Fiction' as Mythogenic Rejuvenation (Part One)

SF Signal: 'The Death of Science Fiction' as Mythogenic Rejuvenation (Part One) — Thu, 30 Jun 2011 16:06:20 +0000

[...] debate it engendered), he triggered a storm of responses, some from other prominent authors like Mark Chadbourn, but also across a number of Livejournals, blogs, and other fora. This debate was particularly [...]

By: Why SF Is Dying: The Follow-up Post (In Which The Author Defends Himself)

Why SF Is Dying: The Follow-up Post (In Which The Author Defends Himself) — Thu, 17 Dec 2009 08:17:46 +0000

[...] took the time for smart rebuttals on their own sites. SF author Philip Palmer took a stand. Mark Chadbourn asked who let the dogs out, and added some cheerful thoughts. And Wert thought it was all down to trend, and mentioned the state of the industry a few decades [...]

By: fritz freiheit.com blog » Link dump

fritz freiheit.com blog » Link dump — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 20:58:18 +0000

[...] Fantasy vs SF Who Let the Dogs Out (SF,Fantasy,Reading,Writing) [...]

By: Paul Jessup

Paul Jessup — Thu, 10 Dec 2009 13:37:23 +0000

“I’ve read Charlaine Harris, bannered as urban fantasy, undoubtedly romance, marketed as both in the UK, so the lines are not as clear-cut as you point out. And when you mention the Dresden Files in the same category as Charlaine Harris, it does point up the absurdity of some of these sub-categorisations.”

Actually, the lines can be pretty clear cut, and it’s the genre test you can use for science fiction. If you take the science out, do you still have a story? If you can’t, it’s science fiction.

If you take the romance out of Sookie Stackhouse books you STILL have a story. Not much of one, but the murder mystery is the primary story, not the romance. So it’s not a romance.

I think one of the best writers in the genre lists the differences best-
http://www.locusmag.com/Perspe.....faith.html

And of course you can find some exceptions to the clear-cut lines of genre- you always will. Otherwise, any genre will be a big stagnant boring swamp. But exceptions don’t make the rule….

By: The Great Geek Manual » Geek Media Round-Up: December 8, 2009

The Great Geek Manual » Geek Media Round-Up: December 8, 2009 — Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:18:39 +0000

[...] Jack of Ravens contemplates Fantasy vs SF: Who Let The Dogs Out?. [...]

By: MarkC

MarkC — Wed, 09 Dec 2009 13:38:35 +0000

Then I will accept your explanation, Paul – although it does point up what I was saying in the post about the micro-tribalisation of tastes. Most non-genre readers probably wouldn’t be too aware of any of the distinctions here – as my US editor said, it’s either spaceships or dragons.

I’ve read Charlaine Harris, bannered as urban fantasy, undoubtedly romance, marketed as both in the UK, so the lines are not as clear-cut as you point out. And when you mention the Dresden Files in the same category as Charlaine Harris, it does point up the absurdity of some of these sub-categorisations.

By: Paul Jessup

Paul Jessup — Wed, 09 Dec 2009 13:27:01 +0000

Now, you’ve made a small error in categorization- you’ve lumped Paranormal Romance together with Urban Fantasy again. Just because it’s contemporary, with werewolves and vampires and demons, does not make it the same genre, any more than Elf porn (and there is such a market here, for Fantastical Romance) is the same as Tolkien.

“In the US, many appear under the Paranormal Romance banner, and their authors, I might add, are happy for them to be there.”

No…no they’re not. I don’t see the Mercy Thompson books listed as Paranormal Romance, nor the Dresden File books. You’re making an error here by lumping these books together. Paranormal Romance takes the genre furniture of romance (mixed with some urban fantasy tropes) while Urban Fantasy takes the genre furniture of noir and fantasy with a bit of horror. That’s it.

“Some urban fantasy takes the stylings of noir, and of horror (with the vampires and werewolves and the rest) but the rhythms of the storytelling echo the romantic novel, not fantasy.”

How so? I think you’re making another categorical error here by lumping wrong books together. Most of the NY Times best selling books, labelled Urban Fantasy, do not have the romantic beat when it comes to their plots.

The romantic beat being- the romance is the main plot of the book (all plots are subservient to the romantic interest, and all opponents are opposing the romance). While most books marked as Urban Fantasy (that I’ve read) have plots that mirror noir stories (a mystery, usually a murder, that unfolds and is the main plot).

The only one I can think is an exception is the Charlaine Harris books, and that has the romance going alongside the murder mystery, so the two plots are entwined.

It just feels like (to me) you are doing the same mistake a lot of writers are- lumping two genres together that bear close resemblance, but are not quite the same thing.

Maybe it’s different here in the US? Urban Fantasy books are sold, shelved and placed in the Fantasy section. Paranormal Romance books are shelved and placed in the Romance section. And from reading both (I’m an unabashed fan of the romance genre) I can tell you there is a difference. It’s in pacing, narrative voice and genre furniture.

By: MarkC

MarkC — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 20:27:32 +0000

I agree with you, Clive. I read across many genres and always have.

Paul, I have read urban fantasy, and I would beg to differ. In fact, I find your suggestion that I consider them closer to romance because they are (generally) written by women quite offensive. When many of the urban fantasy novels came to the UK, they were originally branded under the Gollancz Romancz line. In the US, many appear under the Paranormal Romance banner, and their authors, I might add, are happy for them to be there.

Some urban fantasy takes the stylings of noir, and of horror (with the vampires and werewolves and the rest) but the rhythms of the storytelling echo the romantic novel, not fantasy.

I know some readers – particularly some male readers – bristle whenever the romance issue is raised, but the authors aren’t usually unhappy.

By: clive whitelock

clive whitelock — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:55:37 +0000

I find it a strange concept that a person will read only one genre of book. I can’t add to this and hope you don’t all think I’m trying to trivialise matters by saying this.

By: Paul Jessup

Paul Jessup — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:55:13 +0000

Actually, Urban Fantasy has more to do with Noir novels than with Romance. Just because a lead character is female, does not a romance novel make. If you read any of the best selling Urban Fantasy books, very few of them actually feature Romance as a plot (and even then it’s a sub-sub-sub-sub plot).

And it has more to do with fantasy than romance. It involves different races/species (High fantasy has elves/dwarves, Urban Fantasy uses Vampires and werewolves in almost EXACTLY the same way). If you would read any of the books, you would see that the genre furniture is close to Fantasy and Noir, and very far away from Romance.

Very, very far away. Yet, if you slap a female writer on a book, and a female character as the lead, I guess people are just going to label it Romance. It’s sad, when you think about it.

And there is a fantasy community…it just likes to argue over subgenres. Kind of like how the science fiction community does. Funny how that is.

By: MarkC

MarkC — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:05:50 +0000

If we look at other areas of the media we can see this fragmentation continuing to frighteningly small sub-sets. Within fantasy, I’ve already heard comments from, for instance, some GRRM readers that are almost contemptuous of the elves&dwarves&magic stripe. That splintering only gathers force.

By: David H

David H — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:59:19 +0000

This is an interesting take on the subject, Mark. I think you’re right that, in this country at least, there isn’t a single fantasy community in the way that there’s an sf community; and the fragmentation into subgenres is certainly significant. I’m curious, how far down do you see that fragmentation going? Would we really reach a point where a person might read, say “magic-based fantasy” but not “heroic fantasy”?

By: MarkC

MarkC — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:39:44 +0000

Adrian – good post. Cross promotion is the only way forward in the commercial environment we’re entering, and, as you point out, WoW is a huge untapped audience.

By: Adrian Faulkner

Adrian Faulkner — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:27:41 +0000

Throwing my hat into the ring
“Why Science Fiction Is Dying & Fantasy Fiction Is Dying Too”
http://manmela.livejournal.com/832618.html